Comments on: Adam Bullied vs. Enthiosys: Don't Fight!

By: Happy (belated) birthday to us (again)! « On Product Management

Happy (belated) birthday to us (again)! « On Product Management — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 02:28:39 +0000

[...] Adam Bullied vs. Enthiosys: Don’t Fight [...]

By: Ken Pomper

Ken Pomper — Thu, 19 Mar 2009 02:25:36 +0000

Saeed’s points are some of the most reasoned that I have seen on this subject. Remembering that not all product management equals software product management clarifies that there are a lot of other tasks that a product manager has to accomplish for any kind of product. On the other hand, there are many uses for Agile-like techniques in any kind of product management — common sense should prevail.

Also, in some organizations, product development is only a minor part/ minor cost of the “whole product” development which may include distribution plans, partner coordination, sales launch activities, PR, inventory rebalancing, etc. Agile must fit gracefully not only into the product development process but into this “whole product” process and must be evaluated by this yardstick.

By: saeed

saeed — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:01:47 +0000

Thanks for the comment Russ.

I’ve said this in other blog posts, and Russ says it as well, though a bit differently than I have.

For tightly-coupled tasks — e.g. where everyone works very closely together in a dependent manner — Agile methods are very good.

But as Russ’s example points out, bringing outside parties into the mix can break the efficiency cycle.

Agile (with capital A) and Scrum in particular is about moving forward efficiently towards a set goal. The daily standup meetings and burndown charts are about visibility and ensuring barriers to progress are cleared away as quickly as possible.

There is a certain binary religiosity of Agile vs. Waterfall that tends to cloud more nuanced discussions of the benefits AND detriments of Agile. No system is perfect, let’s admit that, agree on the benefits (if possible) and move forward without getting entangled in philosophical debates.

By: Russ

Russ — Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:54:11 +0000

I think Saeed pinpointed the bigger issue here, and I think that that point is getting buried under the details and propaganda of both camps. Agile was proposed first and foremost as a software methodology. No issue there. It works, there have been fantastic results (and I mean that sincerely), and everybody is generally happy. It’s once the methodology is imposed on other facets of a product or project that issues start to arise.

A publishing company can use agile in its development groups, and as long as it’s a purely Dev implementation, things are fine. However, if the product in question is contingent on new content or leveraging licensed content, it can and will bring everything to a screeching halt. Bringing a third party into the equation, especially one that is quite accustomed to dictating its own schedule and terms, can effectively put any product on hold. Agile might help in reallocating resources for issues like this, but I can’t help but feel that a traditional PM may be better able to account and mitigate situations like this than the agile counterpart, simply because there is a greater focus on the long-term schedule and risk assessment.

By: OnProductManagement

OnProductManagement — Wed, 04 Mar 2009 18:46:15 +0000

@aprildunford @rcauvin – April, are you refering to this article? http://tinyurl.com/adam-vs-enthiosys

By: Roger L. Cauvin

Roger L. Cauvin — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 21:02:43 +0000

Bob, a director of engineering weighed in with a comment on my blog.

By: Roger L. Cauvin

Roger L. Cauvin — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:58:26 +0000

Jim, agile methods affect (and enhance) many of the alleged non-product related tasks you mentioned. For example, pricing often requires an iterative approach. You never know how much customers are willing to pay until you “test” the market with working product.

By: Dr. Jim Anderson

Dr. Jim Anderson — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 18:51:20 +0000

Hmm, you sure hit a hot button. My personal opinion is that this question can be quickly and easily answered simply by taking a look at where a Product Manger spends his / her time. The actual amount of time spent on worrying about product / feature creation is generally somewhere about 20% of a product manger’s time (from my experience). The rest of the time is spent on sales, pricing, support, competition, business plans, forecasting, focus groups, etc.

That means that roughly 80% of a PMs time is spent on non-product related tasks. Agile or not, the development of the product has relatively little impact on a Product Manger – as long as it gets done on time!

- Dr. Jim Anderson
The Accidental PM Blog
“Home Of The Billion Dollar Product Manager”

By: bob corrigan

bob corrigan — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 15:43:29 +0000

I wonder whether this discussion would benefit from bringing some non-PMs into the loop, specifically some development managers and/or technical VPs and/or CIOs. Then let’s go to the other end of the spectrum and ask some sales/marketing types, and end up our “alternative perspectives” worldview tour with a LOB exec.

By: Roger L. Cauvin

Roger L. Cauvin — Mon, 02 Mar 2009 13:46:08 +0000

I have written a blog entry on the issue of whether product management is primarily a development methodology. I believe it addresses the core of yours and others' arguments.